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Kragenmoor vs Davon's Watch


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#1
Transbot9

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Of the two, which should be the capitol of Stone Falls? Traditionally, the modding community has had Kragenmoor as a region capitol, but TESO has Davon's Watch as the capitol of the region and redrew the district maps that Tamriel Rebuilt created.

 

I'm inclined to agree with TESO on this one for two major reasons: first, Stone Falls needs a major port city. TESO has also put into Lore that Davon's Watch is traditionally Indoril and Kragenmoor is Dres. The second major reason has to do with Kragenmoor's proximity to Narsis, which has been moved further west into a flood plain. Even before moving Narsis, the two cities were a bit close for two major cites. Granted, it happens IRL all the time, but from a gameplay standpoint, it's better to have the two spaced further apart.

 

stonefallsmap001_by_transbot9-d78oicu.jp


Edited by Transbot9, 03 March 2014 - 01:52 PM.

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#2
Jehoram

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They have the Dres that far north and west in Morrowind? Also, there's a typo in the OP claiming that Davon's Watch is both Dres and Indoril :P


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#3
Telvanni

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Minor nitpick: Davon's Watch being Indoril isn't exactly new lore (though the city might have moved a bit since then).

 

And while I can understand the reasoning for making DW the more important city, I feel (though this in itself isn't a good argument) that Kragenmoor simply had a better opportunity to grow ever since Morrowind became a part of the Empire (being on the road leading to Cyrodiil and under control of the most pro-Imperial faction in the entire province). Also, wouldn't DW (even moreso in this particular location - the ring at the top marks the remains of Vivec, right?) get hit really badly during the Red Year? Even the initial wave (after the prison moon crashed) would likely cause large destruction in the city.

 

Edit: do you actually plan on using terms like "regional capitol" in the mod? I don't think anything other than house capitol (and Morrowind's capitol for Blacklight) really fits the Dunmer...


Edited by Telvanni, 03 March 2014 - 05:53 PM.

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#4
Sage of Ice

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I have to agree with Telvanni's points - it just makes more sense for Kragenmoor to be the capitol.  Besides, while Davon's Watch may have been important in the Second Era, it's been a long time since then, and every source that includes Kragenmoor from the Third Era (in-game info, maps, etc.) shows Kragenmoor as being more important.  I think the map Telvanni linked to is a pretty good basis for this.


Edited by Sage of Ice, 03 March 2014 - 06:24 PM.

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#5
Deeza

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I'm in complete agreement with Telvanni and Sage.  According to ESO, the cities in other countries have risen and fallen in prominence since the 2nd Era (there are towns in Skyrim that no longer exist in the 4th), and given the enormous increase of Hlaalu's power and wealth post-conquest, Kragenmoor simply makes more sense.


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#6
Transbot9

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Except Kragenmoor is Dres, not Hlaalu. Yes, the original proto-map Bethesda released says Hlaalu, but TESO is officially making it House Dres (oddly enough, in-line with what we were planning). Narsis is also 8 cells away to the south. I'm not comfortable having two 9 celled cities that close. I need a stronger argument other than "it makes sense" - I need to know why it makes sense, besides tradition. Tradition is a factor, but not strong enough of an argument on it's own.


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#7
Deeza

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We have a text from one of the developers stating that it was Hlaalu by the 3rd Era:

 

http://www.imperial-...-cosades-letter

 

I think we can safely assume that it's one of the holdings that Hlaalu was able to steal off the more traditionalist Great Houses after the Tiberian conquest.


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#8
Transbot9

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Certainly justifies Dres in gaining control of it again after the fall of House Hlaalu, although it doesn't affect the current debate.


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#9
Deeza

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So, wait, is the current plan that Hlaalu don't have any holdings?  At all?  I know that they were expelled from the Council and had their "Great House" status removed, but it seems a little excessive that they've been completely dispossessed.  After all, they're not without friends, especially in the Empire.

 

So here's my argument for why Kragenmoor should be the biggest town:

 

  1. It's sitting right next to the gateway to Cyrodiil.  Hlaalu was a mercantile operation first and foremost, so once they'd got Kragenmoor off the Dres, it makes total sense for them to make it their main base of operations.
  2. The ancestral Hlaalu holding appears to be Narsis, which is less central and further away from the main passages to Cyrodiil and Skyrim.  It's also further from the sea.  For these reasons and the above, Kragenmoor is a more logical location to make their capital.
  3. Making Davon's Watch the main city suffers from pretty much the same problem of having cities close together, because it's right next to Ebonheart.

Edit:

 

I should perhaps also add that the problem of having Narsis next door is easily solved by having the place only partly rebuilt since it got Kvatched by the Argonian invasion.


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#10
Transbot9

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Let's add some more maps. Locations aren't quite finalized...

 

stonefallsmap002_by_transbot9-d78siej.jp

bsmorrowind_ultimate_modders_map_settlem

 

Narsis's location is pushed further west by TESO, putting it on a flood plain. Technically, I should pull Naris two cells up and Kragenmoor up and left by one or two cells. Morcroft's map has a mountain pass to the Nibonay basin that would serve as a major land trade route for either city. Kragenmoor is better positioned for land trade to Skyrim, though.

 

Dropping Narsis down to a 4 cell village and boosting Kragenmoor to a 9 cell city, while shifting Davon's watch to a 6 cell town would work. Last I remember, we were planning on Ebonhart having been kvatch.


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#11
Sage of Ice

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I'm also not sure whether you have to move Kragenmoor and Narsis around to match ESO in the first place.  There are several Third Era maps that always put them in the same place, and yes, while things might have changed by the time we get to 4E 201, I don't see why they would have had to move back to their 2E location.

 

The other thing is that ESO's maps are so bizarre and screwed up that I don't think we should really look too closely at them for BS.  I'm sure (or I hope) Zenimax had their reasons for changing things they way they did, but I don't see why we need to deviate from the many maps we have that are from the more recent past in the chronology and are consistent.  I'm mainly talking about Narsis here, although the same applies to Kragenmoor as well I think.   


Edited by Sage of Ice, 04 March 2014 - 01:08 AM.

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#12
Transbot9

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As bad as TESO's maps are, they are also canon. Plus, people new to the series through the MMO or only started with Skyrim who also play the MMO are going to get annoying. What little I've seen of Deshaan puts Naris square on a small flood plain. Sure, we can move it back up into the hills, but it still doesn't quite solve this thread. It would shift the problem solely to Deshaan, but I don't like shifting problems.


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#13
Deeza

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Plus, people new to the series through the MMO or only started with Skyrim who also play the MMO are going to get annoying. 

 

This is inevitable.  No matter what you decide, someone is going to complain about it.  Loudly, bitterly and repetitively.

 

I'm in agreement with Sage.

 

This heightmap was designed based on the various maps Bethesda released, up to and including TES5.  Despite some early continuity wobbles, city locations have been (with one or two exceptions) consistent since TES4.

 

ESO is obviously doing something completely different with their maps, so distorting our heightmap to try to fit it into layouts that were clearly designed purely for genre limitations (such as the need to divide the landmass into neat boxes), simply does not make sense.


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#14
Telvanni

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As bad as TESO's maps are, they are also canon.

Going with that you should axe just about everything in western Morrowind above Stonefalls since TESO didn't really leave room for anything there. And we have the Tamriel map from the Anthology - which was released during TESO's development, so there was a chance to update it, but Bethesda decided againts it. So you're weighting a game developed by a different studio (which can be praised for various things, but the maps aren't one of them) againts several Bethesda-made sources.

 

 

This is inevitable.  No matter what you decide, someone is going to complain about it.  Loudly, bitterly and repetitively.

This. If the map is changed to appease fans of the MMO complaints will come from people who started playing earlier and got to know even a bit about the lore.



#15
Transbot9

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I'm trying to find a balance - and the bluffs that I had Morcroft put in, in this case, are biting me in the rear. Moving it west allows Narsis to be put in a floodplane, which is how TESO depicts it. It's also only slightly further west of where Tamriel Rebuilt put it.


Edited by Transbot9, 04 March 2014 - 02:31 PM.

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