Common worldspace heightmap


1449 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

@Sceluk - Confirmed: this is an attempt to extend the Skyrim worldspace to the whole of Tamriel with seamless transition. Many of us have reservations about this but it seems so popularly desired by the playing community that we feel we have to give it the best try we can, even if it doesn't work in the long run and we have to go for separate worldspaces

@Lady N: Thanks: downloaded, I'll work with this heightmap until I get the one Deeza & TOYB tweaked.

@TOYB (and Deeza) I don't have a copy of that version so I'll work with Lady N's for the moment but I will need a copy as soon as possible.

Sweet as, I'll go digging around my older comp to see if it's around. There isn't that much changed on the heightmap, just some fixing of Betony, the addition of a river 'Duncreigh River', and fixing up the Dellese Isles/Wayrest Coast area, here you can see the issue I mean (minus the changes to Betony, which aren't illustrated): Noirgrim's Original Map, the 'West Tamriel' map he based the changes on, the latest official codex map, and my edited version of Noirgrim's map, and while my Dellese Isles look different from the Codex map of High Rock, they are actually based on the more detailed version as seen in the PGE3's chapter on Orsinium, which features a close up of the area.

Edited by The Old Ye Bard

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Posted (edited)

There was the question of using the heightmap from either Skyrim or Cyrodiil in either game. I reconstructed the heightmaps from the LOD-files and as such are public domain and without any restrictions usable I believe:

Tamriel recovered from Oblivion 32x32

Tamriel recovered from Skyrim 4x4

Good luck

Edited by Ethatron

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Posted

Really useful, Ethatron - thanks.

The Skyrim conversion is great - this is what I was hoping we'd get from the lod textures but didn't. It gives us the "official" heightmap from Northpoint in High Rock as far as the peak of Red Mountain, and south to Bravil. when I get a chance I'll try out a merge using this map to see how it lines up against the reference map - it looks quite close to me. If so then it saves all the messing about blending the Jerall mountains.

I'm not so convinced by the Oblivion map. First, it's very distorted - which was a known problem with it and why we created most of the South from scratch. Second, I'm not sure I share your view that this is any more a public domain resource than the original heightmap. Just because it's extracted from Bethesda's LOD files rather than their game heightmap doesn't reduce any usage restrictions. If anyone can convince me otherwise then I may use it - but if that Skyrim extract is as good as it looks then we're getting to the point where there's not a lot to gain from the older version - just Leyawiin and Blackwood, really.

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Posted (edited)

Not good news for that, really. The Skyrim LOD is pretty badly distorted as well: Cyrodiil is severely foreshortened in the y-axis - and not even really in a linear fashion that could be corrected. The Jerall mountains might still be useful, though. The part of High Rock that's present looks pretty good, as does the Hammerfell side of the Jeralls - but again, it loses it pretty badly towards the south. Some of north west Morrowind looks OK (-ish) but again, it's a bit of a mess compared to the map so I don't think it's much use. Anyway - see for yourself: SkyrimLODmapoverlay.jpg

Edited by morcroft

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Posted

I'm not sure if this has any bearing on your discussions or helps any, but my husband found this article. It not only talks about being able to see the other provinces from Skyrim, which we all know already, but apparently the author actually found a gateway that allows you to walk to Morrowind. It's not developed or anything, but the fact that there's a gateway there might be something that could be leveraged.

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Posted

Really useful, Ethatron - thanks.

You're welcome. I hope I can help you with the application Oscape itself a bit more in the future. The Skyrim portion is quite bleeding edge currently, may take a bit to touch ground.

I'm not sure I share your view that this is any more a public domain resource than the original heightmap. Just because it's extracted from Bethesda's LOD files rather than their game heightmap doesn't reduce any usage restrictions. If anyone can convince me otherwise then I may use it.

Let's try then.

You can not protect a form, just specific data. Be it the height-values or the triangles. When I develop an algorithm which let's say iterates over some custom generated data to resemble the form of the original data as closely as possible (let's say I'd try to make the terrain one big bezier-patch) I'm in no violation of the state of protection of the original data itself, and don't produce a derivative work.

To say it more simple: you can protect the specific NIF of a Kajit, but you can not protect how a Kajit in general looks like, and you are free to create your own NIF of other individual Kajits, up to the point where you are permited to "clone" the appearance of a Kajjit in a protected NIF, as long as the data is not copy'n'paste but look'n'adjust.

As such, if you extract the terrain from the ESM and blur it, you are in a grey area regarding permitions; in fact me personally thinks it doesn't even change the state of being protected at all because it's a derivative work, using the original data. While the regeneration of the map from the LOD files is an algorithmic reconstruction of the terrain's form/shape without incorporating the original data (that are triangles). It is in no way different to run around in the worldspace and geomeasuring it like in real life (triangulation, etc. pp.) and reconstructing it that way. It is no derivative work.

Another example. I can generate LOD-meshes from the heightmap (which data is protected), it creates an algorithmically generated similar representation of it as triangles. My LOD-meshes are not a derivative work and they are not protectable (imagine UL has to pull all it's corrected LOD-meshes because of copyright issues).

May stab. :)

I know you want to be safe, that's why I'd like to present you with this relative sound option.

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Posted (edited)

Let's try then.

OK - your argument sounds solid to me but of course I'm no lawyer! If anyone has a counter-opinion to Ethatron's then let's hear it!

Otherwise, I'm inclined to buy into this one - and the resolution-reduction your technique causes isn't all that different to the blur-and-resharpen one either so that's all good too.

I'm still sure the Skyrim LOD isn't lore-accurate enough to use for anything more than the immediate local area - but may well be useful for that. So we're now looking to blend:

Skyrim raw map (by default, really: we will mesh into it by adjusting its edges but won't redistribute the map itself)

Skyrim LOD extract map for near-neighbourhood

Cyrodiil from Oblivion LOD Extract map

Elsweyr / Valenwood from TES4 Elsweyr Confederacy

Hammerfell / High Rock from some derivative of Noirgrim's map

Still needed:

Black Marsh (Elsweyr has a version of the Western half but it's only coastline-accurate, not inland)

Morrowind (Skyrim LOD extract has a very small amount of usable blending but not enough to work with)

Edited by morcroft

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Posted (edited)

For Morrowind, wouldn't it possible to use the same method of reconstructing LOD data, from MGE's generated LOD? (From Vvardenfell, and also TR's mainland).

Also, as far as the High Rock heightmap goes, there is a couple other issues with the heightmap that we never bothered fixing because of the effort involved (and at the point, we weren't using external height mapping tools, which made the process of making the changes more annoying).

But anyway, here is some visuals of the other issues/distortions (using my edited version of Norgrim's map, with the codex map overlayed):

So with the first map, the outer coast of High Rock is pretty decent, however the gulf on the Northern coast was 'squared off' by Noirgrim, which doesn't look that nice, and is a rather large change in the landscape (however it looks Skyrim's LOD data-(re)-converted-into-a-heightmap has this area on it's heightmap anyway, so it's not so much of an issue); however the worst of the errors are the misaligned Iliac Bay & Hammerfell, however when you look at the second image... (scroll down)

highrockannotated01.jpg

You'll notice the bay itself is semi-accurate (mostly after my edits to Norgrim's original), and the coast of Hammerfell is pretty much spot-on.

highrockannotated02shif.jpg

Now I'm not even sure that something like this can be fixed at this stage, but on the odd chance something can be done about it, I'm thinking this would probably be the best time to bring it up.

Edit:

And showing it's not just a simple scaling issue, here's it alligned (via scaling the Codex map slightly larger) so that the Skyrim Coast and the Hammerfell Coast match up on both maps).

highrockannotated01nots.jpg

Edited by The Old Ye Bard

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Posted

Hi all, apologies for taking so long to get back to you on this.

The latest version of the heightmap for High Rock and Hammerfell can be found in the esm here:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/21129861/HighRock.esm

I'm sorry its currently part of such a bulky file. I don't have time to extract the heightmap right now, so if anyone gets around to doing it before me then please go ahead.

Kind Regards,

Deeza

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Posted (edited)

For Morrowind, wouldn't it possible to use the same method of reconstructing LOD data, from MGE's generated LOD? (From Vvardenfell, and also TR's mainland).

I'll take a look at the specifics of Morrowind's LOD, if it's not a far stride I'll make you an extract. Looks like there are no LOD-meshes, it's some huge raw-file. If there are TES4 NIFs of Morrowind in some mod I could use those. Which should I use?

Ah, and these maps are probably not the last word, I wanted to use the normal maps to reconstruct the micro-detail, but I guess that's maybe not so interesting for you, and's not implementable in short time.

Edited by Ethatron

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Posted

For Morrowind, wouldn't it possible to use the same method of reconstructing LOD data, from MGE's generated LOD? (From Vvardenfell, and also TR's mainland).

I'll take a look at the specifics of Morrowind's LOD, if it's not a far stride I'll make you an extract. Looks like there are no LOD-meshes, it's some huge raw-file. If there are TES4 NIFs of Morrowind in some mod I could use those. Which should I use?

Ah, and these maps are probably not the last word, I wanted to use the normal maps to reconstruct the micro-detail, but I guess that's maybe not so interesting for you, and's not implementable in short time.

Well you could use one of Lightwave's programs to export MW's HM to OB, then generate the LOD, and make it from that?

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Posted

Well you could use one of Lightwave's programs to export MW's HM to OB, then generate the LOD, and make it from that?

Phitt's Sheogorad (isn't this with "th"?) contains Morrowind, no need to do it again. It's only 0.5x if I remember right. Sounds good? BTW, I uploaded the program now, so if you generate first LOD-meshes from Sheogorad and then recover from those, you don't need me and you can become accustomed to the program, and maybe find a few bugs (I hope not). :)

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Posted

Well you could use one of Lightwave's programs to export MW's HM to OB, then generate the LOD, and make it from that?

Phitt's Sheogorad (isn't this with "th"?) contains Morrowind, no need to do it again. It's only 0.5x if I remember right. Sounds good? BTW, I uploaded the program now, so if you generate first LOD-meshes from Sheogorad and then recover from those, you don't need me and you can become accustomed to the program, and maybe find a few bugs (I hope not). :)

Just ran an extract of this and it looks pretty good for Vvardenfell. We still need mainland Morrowind, as there's none of that. Also will need some idea of how much the geography has changed. The Vivec area's just a crater I guess - has the extent of the blast zone / eruption damage been worked out yet?

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Posted

A question I feel tempted to find an artistic answer to (means I'd love to make the damaged landmass :) ). But I haven't got the time really. I imagine the ministery didn't fall perpendicular but left a nice path on impact. There is mostly soft earth upto the volcano, if we say the trajectory is south->north or northeast, which means huge up-throws of earth, then fill in with water which would be violent and probably splattered all over the place, imagine you throw a big stone into the mud. I expect it hit or scratched the volcano base below sea-level, possibly even penetrated the magma-dome opening it up to the east side and stuck (or exploded) on the east side below the surface near Vos or Tel Mora. There everything pushed up, the stuctures in pieces sticking from the steep slope. The volcano exploded through that side into Sadrith Mora in a huge rainbow like fountain of hot lava. Something in that direction I imagine. :P

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Posted

The following are the only attempt I have ever seen at imagining it artistically, which were done by Lady Nerevar (the first is a "conservative" estimate of the changes, the second is more radical):

morrowind4e.jpg

morrowind4eterrain.jpg

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Posted

ok guys seems you were right about it not being legal to use the Ob Heightmap.

taking resources from one game (art files, audio, raw terrain information, et cetera) and porting them to another is not allowed
. Direct quote from here: http://forums.bethso...st__p__19974327

A direct quote, but taken out of context. He's talking about Morroblivion, not standard mods, we're not porting any of Bethesda's assets over.

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Posted

I posted it because Deeza was worrying about whether it was legal or not to port Ob's heightmap. The main problem was that had been no official word and whatnot on the heightmaps, now you have it, official confirmation. And no, the Moderator 's not talking about Morroblivion, he's talking about mods in general.

Mods that include such files are blacklisted from the forums

Lucky for us, it seems we made the right decision already ;). I do hope that a blurredsharpen HM doesn't count as 'ported', cause that would suck. I don't think it would though, especially since its going to be part of a larger HM.

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