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Galandil

06/11/2017

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I know but holds is in the alpha version right now so who knows what could happen in the beta or even the full release version like maybe some changes will be made to Falkreath and Dawnstar as well

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So are you trying to say they need more walls? Falkreath got fully enclosed with walls and made two stories and dawnstar also got enclosed and remade in stone. What other changes you want that haven't been announced?

Edited by Rasilon

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I wasn’t talk about walls anymore for Falkreath or Dawnstar they’re fine already but I’m sure the guy in charge of this mod has probably a few more ideas for Falkreath and Dawnstar. As for Morthal and Winterhold yeah I think walls would be a welcomed sight especially for Winterhold so they look like actually cities instead of towns or villages.

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I did give Falkreath and Dawnstar walls, and while I have intentions of making some changes to Dawnstar, mostly to nordify it, I am actually happy with how Falkreath turned out. I'm leaning towards adding some extra clutter details in the interiors and perhaps adding some extra support-beams to a few of the houses, but beyond that the project is wrapping up :)

I do intend to change the walls a bit, but the over-all layout will remain the same, with the walls focusing on the Whitehall and the southern gate, with everything else simply fenced.

With Winterhold I could try to add thicker walls but I had originally thought to go for more of a Riften fence defense. While every city in Cyrodiil have thick defensive walls I feel like it may be a bit much if every city in Skyrim have this as well. Winterhold is the city of mages, so I thought I'd balance it a bit with the rest of Skyrim. I could make the outer-walls thicker but I'm a bit hesitant to raise them high and add adding platforms. Will respond to the other posts just give me a minute :)

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The problem with Winterhold's walls isn't width or height, its that it doesn't properly surround the town. Io the west just being a pair of towers and the south it stops twice and is replaced by buildings. If someone where to attack the town they could just hop over into someones yard or smash through a window and climb in.  Having the walls out a bit more with a gap between them and the buildings  would make more sense from a defensive position, providing time for the defeners in the city to respond or for the mages in the towers to deal with the interloper. (And also the visual effect of approaching the town to see the broken walls and towers, the most obvious symbols of city fallen from glory.) 

Sorry to put this before your other replies, only noticed once id already pressed submit.

Edited by Rasilon

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@mikiep1031: I'll be sure to have a house available for the Dragonborn to purchase once the city is restored :P 

 

@Rasilon: I thought to do that yeah. When the city is destroyed the entire palace district has been submerged and thus the walls carry towards the cliff before looking as though its about to tumble over. :) Like most Winterhold Overhauls do. I will, I have noticed this as well and will be utilizing snowdrifts. In some of the area's though where it is flattest the ground is pavement, and while I have added snowdrift the flat ground make sense in my opinion and I don't want to overdo it. With that said, I will be adding more snowdrifts to the other area's. The fence isn't imposing no. I will consider adding a thicker wall, like I use near the college district but I'm hesitant to make it as large and imposing as say.. the walls in Windhelm. Winterhold is the city of mages and I had thought to add some unique aesthetics to the towers, like crystals which can be tuned to Winterhold's defense. While Winterhold was a powerhouse through out Skyrim's history I don't want to do an overkill and make it look impregnable. Especially considering we're going to overhaul the Civil War at one point and the Dragonborn will have to take the city. :)

 

@Gahrotgoltfus: It is true, I do go for a very grid-like design. It comes down to the buildings being very boxy and I want to fit as many buildings within a short space as possible. It also makes a city feel more developed and less simple. For cities like Falkreath, Winterhold, Solitude and Riften I think this is a sound way of doing it. You have tight-packed alleyways and buildings towering above you. Considering the lore of these places it adds to the concept that these are cities that have drawn people from the Hold to it by offering labor for coin, no different from how settlements evolved in our real world history. If you look at medieval cities and even old Scandinavian Viking settlements you will find this as well. For cities like Whiterun and Morthal which aren't as advanced and hold closer to the old ways, more open and loosely placed homes is the way to go. With Winterhold I've seperated the city into districts. Which are walled off towards each other, this makes the city feel larger then it actually is when you have everything broken up like that. When it comes to designing buildings I could add rounder corners and place them to make the maze of a city a bit more loose and less uniformed in its approach but not only would this take up a lot more space that I could fill, but it would also make it difficult to add roofs with proper weight adjustments. I had thought to do this and use the typical Winterhold balcony roof-top approach but I decided against as it would take up too much space that I otherwise would like to fill. Instead I made some of the buildings have varying square shapes, to make place for tight alleyways. 

I do intend to go back and make changes to Dawnstar, both in the building style and the layout. As your right. Dawnstar doesn't need a grid-like building placement like that, and the building style is far too European and needs to be nordified. I still want to keep the tightly packed docking area, but the rest will be changed, and I do intend to make it loosely placed in those area's. :)

Winterhold when you first approach it was destroyed in the Great Collapse. So the buildings and walls are for the most part ruined. I am leaning towards taking a Fallout route, having some of the buildings while wrecked, still standing for the most part so the Player can explore them and add a nice dynamic that way, but aside from adding perhaps some fence walls here and there to try and keep wildlife and bandits out, the city is on its last legs. 

The original concept was to have the Palace span across a bridge near the College. However I decided against this after speaking with Wrenik about it, as the College not only overshadowed the Palace, but it felt repetitive from the College. I wanted to place it near the Walls to give it a belonging feeling with the defenses. I will definitely have to change it up a bit to make it more defensible. With that said the environment that the Palace finds itself on makes it difficult for invaders to attack, the ground is un-even and the Palace finds itself on a cliff-side. An attacker might find it tempting to scale the walls and get into the Merchants district where the statue of the warrior stands, however they would also have to contend with a magic tower as well as a tight gateway. Perhaps I could add more cliffsides to the sides of the walls in these area's to make it less accessible. :)

I want to go for the Helgen Reborn route. As time passes more and more people move in, but it will not be as it was with as many NPC's as before the great Collapse. This is for two reasons: one its unrealistic, and two I actually want this to be an open city, and therefor I have to limit how much impact this city will have on the game. Its a cold city so most people might want to stay indoors which works great for the engine's sake, but I can't imagine a few hundred people showing up over the span of a year and the Jarl just welcoming them in. Korir is a xenophobe who clearly distrusts outsiders, and Kraldar while an optimist I'd still imagine taking precautions. Besides, for people to want to move there they'd have to give up everything have, their home, their friends and risk getting killed, encountering dragons or getting robbed on the way. 

So the NPC's currently in the mod is a given, and other NPC's who over time move in. One building will be available for the Dragonborn to purchase for himself. I fear there may be a few empty homes, but since the Dragonborn restores the city with a spell, they are part of the package. Perhaps we can find a neat way of doing it. I had this idea that as a part of the College Quest-line you help the two missing apprentices who wished to create a new kind of Mead and in vanilla, died in the process. Perhaps they can open up a meadary. I don't imagine many would want to live near the cliffs, but I'd imagine the Jarl being quite happy about being able to move into the Palace. Being such an unlikable guy, perhaps it is best that he is solitary over there. :P 

Ah yes! I did look up this concept while making my own! Its a great map but I have a few problems with it. The first problem that made me hesitant with using it is that the city now stretches down the roadside. I did not want the city to go too far from its original boundaries for one very important reason: You'll be able to see the city from afar. This is actually a big problem I have with open world RPG's, if you can see Civilization in every direction, you don't really feel like your in a wilderness anymore. Skyrim does this actually pretty well, the cities are often hidden behind mountain-cliffs or a hill, or something that forces you to approach it before being able to spot it. There are a few exceptions like Solitude and the college of Winterhold but these are also only visible from certain angles. The College for instance feels like it could be really far away even when your approaching by the road, however if we start adding city structures that span up the cliff-side that leads down to Winterhold, then all of a sudden you have an exact idea where the city is located which at least for me would be bothersome. I cannot change Solitude and the College's design, but I can try to avoid these mistakes in my own design. The other problem I have is that the College is no longer separated from the city proper with the bridge. Which honestly makes the bridge feel really out of place. If all it is a wall leading up to the College it- well it feels like a rather odd design decision honestly. A bridge makes sense. The concept also has a big keep at the foot of the College which was something I wanted to go for as well up until a fellow developer gave his thoughts on it and it honestly did make the Palace feel very underwhelming. The last problem I have with the design is that the wildlife below the College would have to be swept aside. I had thought to create my own dock district but ultimately I decided against it as felt a bit overkill in the end. Had I been designing a city in High Rock, or Cyrodiil it might've felt more fitting, despite Winterhold being a powerful hold. The Last concept image definitely felt a bit much, I believe those walls and towers are modeled after the keep in Dawnguard. Winterhold would by this token feel like a step-up above all the other cities in Skyrim, heck.. The cities in Cyrodiil as well. While it looks cool it feels a bit much. 


@Rasilon: Definitely, approaching the city with the towers and walls broken down, perhaps re-enforced by sharpen stakes here and there to clumsily imitate a defense should be heartbreaking and really bring home the situation the city finds itself in. Hm. I believe I made sure the buildings near the wall didn't have windows, aside from the Palace I mean. I'll have to double check! I could add a layer of walls around the buildings, will need to look at a way to make this work though, as the area would have to be accessible as well. 

 

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Thank you galandil and in the base game, I thought that Whiterun was one of the most detailed cities if not the most detailed in Skyrim because the way it looked and the feeling it gave made it seem vibrant and it had named districts in Whiterun so that made it more interesting than the other cities were

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It's a bit too much for me atm to get into everything here, but you asked for feedback about Winterhold, and so here i am! :)

First of all: Tanks for the effort as always and OH MY, do the screenshots look promissing and sexy! If you look from the bird fiew it looks a little bit small, but if you re literally in the town and stand between this awesoem buildings it feels SO big. i get the trick are the many small, narrow alleys and the "grid-design".  but i like it and it fits SO well. (especially if we think of the Harry Potter inspiration ;) )

I made a little list after watching, cause BRAH, i was so hyped during watching this!

- i am normally no big fan of playerhomes (except vanilla and some small houses) but for Winterhold i would really like to have one - or at least a flat in one of the higher houses (that would be awesome aswell)

- Merchant district. it feels very small and "squeezed in". the space infront of the palace would be more fitting (imo) or make the city a little big bigger and separate it more. 

- > about the bigness: imo the concept pics Gahrotgoltfus posted are cool and all but even for the former capital WInterhold it looks too big. Galandil argued with the wilderness-feeling and the angle of view. and i do agree with this. otherwise he need to make every city much bigger and then the hole wild skyrim world feels much smaller and civilized. :/

- Alchemist: in one of your screenshots i see an alchemist sign hidden in a narrow corner. i like this very much and do hope you really add one. (for a wizard town its long overdue)

- the vanilla merchants house does miss a sign to highlight it more of the other (pretty stylish) buildings.

- it would be AWESOME if students of the college would visit the town - especially the merchants and the alchemist . Like Odmund walks through the town and visiting the tavern, J'zargo chatting with the merchants and finding Brelyna searching some ingredients in the alchemist-store. :o 

- Temple of Jhunal: i so much like this idea, cause when i tried Winterhold myself years ago, i wanted to implement a statue of Julianos and a lonesome priest, who pray a few times a day infront of it. But the way up to the temple and its location is just wonderful.

- talking about wonderfullness: the big estate (the BIG house at the "crossing") beside it looks fantastic, what purpose does it have beside this? for me, it looks like a kind of library. would ve filled this space with a big building too btw. ^^

- Livestock area: nothing much to say. jsut asking if there are cows in one of the houses, like in Falkreath? if yes: great idea! :)

- you mentioned some time ago, that you want to add birds (from another mod author) for some "mail-jobs" etc. but i would really like to see crows and seagulls flying above it <3 :) 

- about the statues: each of it looks brilliant, but so many for this townsize? i mean, it would fit more, if every town would have statues. or did you want to underline the academic aspect? :P

- about the gates: i soooo much like the idea, of taking the doors of the college. but i agree, that the walls could be a little bit bigger - especially the front gate. these slim towers look stylish and cool, but they are just for the look and not for guards or some kind of bonfire?

- i know that navmesh etc is missing atm (good luck with that :P ) but could you consider to add two guards infront of the gate leading to the palace?

- Ilex! SO MUCH ILEX! i guess you implemented more ilex than hole skyirm can offer. jokes aside: it fits Winterhold and its feeling perfect! 

- i rellay like the northen gate and how it looks! but what always bothered me: where is it leading? as far as i can remember there is anything... so maybe a jetty and some fisherboats could be a thing? without implementing a whole harbour ofc. ;)

- and last but not least a question: is it possible to give the guards a more unique look? i know that you would ve to give all guards of skyrim a more unique look. but atm there is (imo) only one decent guard-mod, but its old and i think outdated. :/

 

Edited by Cailan

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oh boy, I am back!

So in my absence, my favorite city been tackled? not only that but its been done great! the feel and layout is spot on, and I can already feel how I will walk around its streets dreaming of its former glory once its ruined, and once it's returned from the ashes the city will be great. many quests can be written for this and I can steel some quest Ideas I had for a Different modding project I worked on, that never came to be. the feel of decay and former lost glory will easily be ensured with a city that used to look this grand and amazing!

Now, it is not perfect, first of all, Walls. now hight wise they are good, its the thickness that needs addressing. make them the same size as the northern walls or the college bridge, add ladders to the towers or walkways to the walls, and then I think we got it good. no need for huge walls like Dawnstar or Windhelm, but just enough so they feel like they actually were built to defend against more than ten guys pushing against it to make it fall over... you know give it some weight in proper thickness!

the second thing is the Jarls Palace, and well... not sure how to say it but I didn't read what screenshot was what at first and honestly had no clue that was the palace. its a small building with no specific parts saying "hay, leader lives here!" there are two ways you can go to correct this; big or fancy. if you go big you just make the entire building bigger, more rooms more hight etc. or you can go in and make it feel fancier, add towers or iconic parts like the blue palace or the palace of kings, dragons reach, something to make it feel like a unique building that catches the players eye letting them know the building is important.

so short feedback:

Looks great
Amazing work
Fucking thank you!
Thicker walls
More noticeable Jarl palace

I will begin suggesting ideas for Winterhold shortly quests, NPCs and such I will even write some dialogs. :)

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20 hours ago, wrenik said:


the second thing is the Jarls Palace, and well... not sure how to say it but I didn't read what screenshot was what at first and honestly had no clue that was the palace. its a small building with no specific parts saying "hay, leader lives here!" there are two ways you can go to correct this; big or fancy. if you go big you just make the entire building bigger, more rooms more hight etc. or you can go in and make it feel fancier, add towers or iconic parts like the blue palace or the palace of kings, dragons reach, something to make it feel like a unique building that catches the players eye letting them know the building is important.
 

About the palace part and "no specific parts": there are griffon-statues "guarding" it. imo they fit very well. and then the palace is the only building with separate walls and a balcony with a tree in it. (cool idea too imo). but maybe it could be a bit higher. anyhow: the building should be protected a bit more from behind -> wall thinkness?

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Made an account here just for this mod, I'll post some thoughts and feedback when I get more time but for now I am loving the new look and feel of Winterhold and am patiently awaiting the next update with baited breath, keep up the amazing work. 

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1 hour ago, Throren said:

Made an account here just for this mod, I'll post some thoughts and feedback when I get more time but for now I am loving the new look and feel of Winterhold and am patiently awaiting the next update with baited breath, keep up the amazing work. 

Welcome to the club, mighty Throren!

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Yesterday, a little idea came into my mind about the merchant-area: why not create a place for merchants and their stores which is sheltered? i mean with a kinda very small "dome". it would let Winterhold stand out even more and would make much more sense than my hilarious moss idea, cause WInterhold is very close to cliffs, sea and the area around it is very empty + relativ low walls = very windy. so, again, a dome-like shelter + maybe a fireplace in the centre would be pretty damn cool and - imo - fitting.

i wish all a nice sunday, cheers

 

Edit: maybe just with beams or with walls? the fire place would need a bell-like outlet. 

Edited by Cailan

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Another idea, not for Winterhold, just for immersion: More caravans. there a few patrol mods adressing the civilisation outside of the towns and cities. but there are nearly no caravans. this would also underline the importance of Whiterun.

 

My idea: A Hammerfell-Caravan - adressing the west of Skyrim, and a Dunmer-Caravan - adressing the east of Skyrim.

Here is a very unskilled but funny concept for the Hammerfell one: (took me 2 hours  cause i am unskilled with gimp and couldnt find decent material)

 

Hammerfell_Caravan.jpg

the idea is that Hammerfell always reminded me a tiny bit of the LotR Harad. So i thought it would be amazing if we could see Mumakil like caravans coming from the gate between Falkreath and Markarth. They follow the way up to Whiterun for trading. 

 

The same goes for the dunmer ones just coming from the east and not with mammoths ofc. they could have a hiking-circus like carts with many lanterns (of the DLC Dragonborn) imo with this DLC there is plenty Dunmer-stuff to come up with. (no concept yet) 

Edited by Cailan

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I have to point out that the redguards may have elephants, but even if they did i doubt they're going to try pulling a Hannibal with a trade caravan, especially when they already have camels and horses.

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2 hours ago, Rasilon said:

I have to point out that the redguards may have elephants, but even if they did i doubt they're going to try pulling a Hannibal with a trade caravan, especially when they already have camels and horses.

Well Hannibal did march across the Alps with his war elephants, but I don't think Skyrim is their climate. Besides, more then likely they'd become a target for giants who are eager to herd their fur-less mammoth towards their camp. 

 

On 3.2.2018 at 11:30 PM, Throren said:

Made an account here just for this mod, I'll post some thoughts and feedback when I get more time but for now I am loving the new look and feel of Winterhold and am patiently awaiting the next update with baited breath, keep up the amazing work. 

Welcome! I look forward to reading your opinions on the project this far :)

 

On 4.2.2018 at 12:32 PM, Cailan said:

Yesterday, a little idea came into my mind about the merchant-area: why not create a place for merchants and their stores which is sheltered? i mean with a kinda very small "dome". it would let Winterhold stand out even more and would make much more sense than my hilarious moss idea, cause WInterhold is very close to cliffs, sea and the area around it is very empty + relativ low walls = very windy. so, again, a dome-like shelter + maybe a fireplace in the centre would be pretty damn cool and - imo - fitting.

i wish all a nice sunday, cheers

 

Edit: maybe just with beams or with walls? the fire place would need a bell-like outlet. 

Way ahead of you! Discussed this a bit with Wrenik as well a few days ago. We have a merchant stand outside of the palace, a type of Bazaar. In a way you might say the merchant district and the palace district are connected. However I wanted to keep the gateways. Essentially its your typical roof with beams holding it up and a large table underneath for the merchants to peddle their wares. I think that making it a big merchant plaza would be fine, though I'd worry it'd make other trading area's such as in Whiterun and Solitude would feel smaller by comparison. Winterhold was never known as a big trade-capital and so I want to reflect that. We also discussed making the outer walls a bit more, errr.. protective? Thicker and higher walls, we will implement that :)

 

As for your caravan idea, I had thought of this before. Why are there no caravans on the roads? We have the mechanics for making the carriage move about so why not use it. Well, there's a reason for that and its bugs. When I tried it out I couldn't get the cart to stick properly, and worse.. when exploring Skyrim and finding a carriage the cart would get stuck on the horse and spasm about as the horse tries to pull forward, it was a hilarious mess. If we can get it right then I would be very positive towards adding trade carriages on the road, but if we can't then I already have dialogue reflecting that trade caravans are becoming rarer between the holds due to the growing intensity of the bandit clans and the Civil War. Aside from the Khajiit Caravan there aren't that many who dare to travel the road with goods. With that said, I would love to get it working but I think we ought to stick to Horse and cart ;) I am also tempted to make some of the NPC's who I've written as pelt merchants and other mover of goods to have AI Packages where they will actually travel across the land, though by foot. Finding someone traveling will be rare but it would be a nice surprise when you do find someone and you might remember speaking with that particular merchant at the Winking Skeever.

As for foreigners peddling wares in Skyrim... Holds does actually add a Redguard caravan of sorts towards Falkreath. Two merchants have been barred from entering the city and peddle their wares outside while the third member peddles the wares from an inn near the Hammerfell border. Spices, special wines, special jewelry and magical trinkets from Elinhir. Other then that, well... We have the Khajiit. I fear the khajiit caravan might feel a little less unique if Skyrim is suddenly full of other races doing the exact same thing. 

 

 

 

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One thing that I hope is shown more, which I think you touched on in that religion post, is the nordic pantheon.  Its one f the things I liked about ESO; in ESO its Kyne, Stuhn, Tsun etc.  Yet we know when they made Skyrim they imperialized all of the gods as to not confuse players from Oblivion. So I really hope we see things like Shrines and temples renamed and added to their nordic version. 

Also out of curiosity how far along would you say you are with Dawnstar and Winterhold? Winterhold looked like it was pretty well done. I have to say the whiterun roofing tiles really helped with that city. It looks much better and the buildings dont have that sorta flat sided box look anymore, well done.

Edited by Throren

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2 hours ago, Throren said:

One thing that I hope is shown more, which I think you touched on in that religion post, is the nordic pantheon.  Its one f the things I liked about ESO; in ESO its Kyne, Stuhn, Tsun etc.  Yet we know when they made Skyrim they imperialized all of the gods as to not confuse players from Oblivion. So I really hope we see things like Shrines and temples renamed and added to their nordic version. 

Also out of curiosity how far along would you say you are with Dawnstar and Winterhold? Winterhold looked like it was pretty well done. I have to say the whiterun roofing tiles really helped with that city. It looks much better and the buildings dont have that sorta flat sided box look anymore, well done.

Can guarantee this. In Winterhold we have a temple to Jhunal, in Windhelm we have a temple of the old gods or Tsun(Not yet decided whether to just go for one or all of them). In Morthal they don't exactly have a temple though the Longhouse could substitute for it, where they worship Shor and Kyne. The people of Dawnstar have a very warped view of the Nordic Pantheon but worship primarily Stuhn, Kyne and Tsun. :)

Well I'm working on the interiors but we're looking at over 30 interiors in just the pre-destruction versions. Then there's the destroyed versions which I doubt will take too long, but then there's the restored. If I want to cut corners.. I mean.. some of the buildings in destroyed aren't destroyed and should remain the same. Some of the destroyed will be so wrecked its just barely standing walls. Dawnstar I have yet to start on. 

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21 hours ago, Cailan said:

Another idea, not for Winterhold, just for immersion: More caravans. there a few patrol mods adressing the civilisation outside of the towns and cities. but there are nearly no caravans. this would also underline the importance of Whiterun.

this idea could be expanded upon, I don't see it being a priority any time soon but if it is implemented I believe some Imperial/Cyrillic Breton and even a large amount of Nord caravans could be added, to ensure the player bumps into interesting NPCs from all over. I do however believe to recall that most caravans keep out of Skyrim due to the civil war, perhaps they return once the questline is completed with a few exceptions like the kajits and maybe some ballsy nords who trade regardless of the ongoing conflict?

 

13 hours ago, Galandil said:

As for foreigners peddling wares in Skyrim... Holds does actually add a Redguard caravan of sorts towards Falkreath. Two merchants have been barred from entering the city and peddle their wares outside while the third member peddles the wares from an inn near the Hammerfell border. Spices, special wines, special jewelry and magical trinkets from Elinhir. Other then that, well... We have the Khajiit. I fear the khajiit caravan might feel a little less unique if Skyrim is suddenly full of other races doing the exact same thing. 

^
This as Galandil said been a discussed topic, got some ideas I will post with merchants traveling on foot/horse, however, to get it looking right we need backpacks, do we have access to any such assets?

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